[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":795},["ShallowReactive",2],{"/en-us/blog/zapier-pick-your-brain-interview":3,"navigation-en-us":39,"banner-en-us":439,"footer-en-us":449,"blog-post-authors-en-us-Noah Manger":690,"blog-related-posts-en-us-zapier-pick-your-brain-interview":704,"assessment-promotions-en-us":745,"next-steps-en-us":785},{"id":4,"title":5,"authorSlugs":6,"body":8,"categorySlug":9,"config":10,"content":14,"description":8,"extension":26,"isFeatured":12,"meta":27,"navigation":28,"path":29,"publishedDate":20,"seo":30,"stem":34,"tagSlugs":35,"__hash__":38},"blogPosts/en-us/blog/zapier-pick-your-brain-interview.yml","Zapier Pick Your Brain Interview",[7],"noah-manger",null,"culture",{"slug":11,"featured":12,"template":13},"zapier-pick-your-brain-interview",false,"BlogPost",{"title":15,"description":16,"authors":17,"heroImage":19,"date":20,"body":21,"category":9,"tags":22},"Scaling communication at Zapier","GitLab CEO Sid Sijbrandij sits down with Zapier team members to chat about communication challenges in each growing company.",[18],"Noah Manger","https://res.cloudinary.com/about-gitlab-com/image/upload/v1749680279/Blog/Hero%20Images/zapier-pyb-post.jpg","2018-01-08","\n_On November 17, Mike Knoop and Noah Manger of Zapier [sat down with GitLab’s CEO Sid Sijbrandij](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/eba/ceo-scheduling/#pick-your-brain-meetings) to discuss the way the two companies approach the challenge of scaling communication as a company grows. This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity._\n\n\u003C!-- more -->\n\n**The heartbeat of our organization is our weekly Friday Update posts that everyone at the company writes. The problem is that as we’ve grown, it’s become a tremendous amount of information. We’re really good at generating the firehose of content, but not as good at consuming it. So I’d love to learn what processes you use at GitLab and if you feel like you’ve got a good grip on this problem?**\n\nWe have a #working-on Slack channel but I’m working on killing it because I just don’t care what people in another part of the company are working on. I just don’t care. There are just too many people at 200 people.\n\nWhat works really well for us are the [functional group updates](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/ask-me-anything/). Every day of the week there’s a presentation (for a maximum of 25 minutes) by a team lead with a slide deck of what they’re working on, and there's an opportunity to ask questions. So you get to stay updated about what all the development teams are doing, what sales is doing, what marketing is doing, what legal is doing, what partnerships is doing. It’s on a three-week rotation so 15 different functional areas and then we start over from the top.\n\n**Do you measure how many people consume this content?**\n\nLive in the call it’s about 50 but it differs on the matter. It’s planned for every single day. We hadn’t scheduled them for a month or two and everyone in the company reported feeling out of touch about where the company was going and what people were working on.\n\nWe are doing asynchronous stand-ups, but it’s just for something that’s a high priority project and there’s a chance of delay that we can’t afford. Right now there are three groups on asynchronous stand-ups that are super high-priority projects and we want to make sure that nobody’s blocked. So someone posts a message saying “Asynchronous stand-up for today” and then everyone posts in the thread what they’re working on and may be blocked on.\n\nNormally we don’t do it and we just work in [GitLab issues](https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/issues/). When you start working on something you assign your name to it, and so if you want to know what someone is working on you see what issues are assigned to them.\n\n**Why did you choose to do functional updates as videos rather than written?**\n\nIt allows for more interaction. Yesterday my update had three topics and I had a slide for each. People ask questions mostly in the chat feed in Zoom. Sometimes if they have an elaborate question I’ll ask them to explain more verbally. We spend 15-20 minutes on people asking questions. That’s what we want — it’s not typical — but that’s where we want to go. Sometimes people have a lot to present and talk for 20 minutes, but we want to try to split those up and constrain the presenting part to 10 minutes.\n\nAnd if they’re over in 10 or 15 minutes and nobody has any questions, that’s great.\n\nAnd one thing: the presentation slides have to be linked to in the invite before the presentation starts. People have to be able to invest one minute to click through the presentation to see if they need to join the call, or they can just say “This is great and I don’t need to join.” And obviously everything is recorded: it’s put into our Google Drive and you can see everything and the ones that are able to be public will be posted every Friday.\n\n**Is it typical for someone to join every update?**\n\nI join about two thirds of them.\n\n**So if someone were to join every one it’d be a two-and-a-half-hour time commitment every week?**\n\nYeah, but you won’t be asked any questions so you’re able to multitask and zone out if you don’t need to pay attention.\n\n**You’re global, so how do you deal with time zones? Do you rotate it around so other people are able to join?**\n\nYou’re not expected to join at all. These are optional; join them if you want to. But time zones are the bane of our existence. Most of our people are either in Europe or the Americas, so we do this in our most convenient time zones. So our functional updates are at 8am Pacific and our team call is at 8:30am Pacific. There’s been a trend of scheduling meetings over this but we’re trying to prevent that.\n\n**What percentage of content about the company do people consume over video versus writing?**\n\nIt depends. It depends on how they like to consume content. If you’re good with written content, you can get by with the handbook and the presentations. If you like to consume it by listening and hearing people interact, then the video calls are a good way to do it. What’s important is that we make both ways available and then people can do it as they please.\n\n>If you’re good with written content, you can get by with the handbook and the presentations. If you like to consume it by listening and hearing people interact, then the video calls are a good way to do it. What’s important is that we make both ways available and then people can do it as they please.\n\nAnd some people might not care so much! Some people are happy being an open source developer and don’t care about the machinations of a company and that is A-OK. We’re not going to force you to sit through this or check your attendance rate. That is just fine.\n\nBut some people really care and they care about all the aspects. They joined a startup because they want to know what’s happening. For example, when we were doing fundraising we had a fundraising Slack channel and people were asking questions like “What’s the liquidation preference?” And that’s great. If you’re interested we’re not trying to shield you; we don’t want you to get too distracted but it’s there if you want to dive in.\n\n**Do you find people have anxiety around keeping up with information and being concerned they’re not missing things?**\n\nWhat people report is that starting here is overwhelming. The first month is a dark place. We never have people quit during that time but everyone reports that it’s super hard on them. We have one onboarding issue that has about 100 checkboxes you need to check off. And we try to have it all go by what you do on Day 1, Day 2. But it’s very overwhelming. We try to figure out what to cut, but everyone says “No, it’s good to have it all there.” When you first join you have access to the entire map of GitLab so you have to constrain your view.\n\n**Are there other things that you do to help teams know what other teams are doing around the organization?**\n\nWell the [handbook](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/) is really important. That contains all our processes, all the different departments, how they operate, who’s responsible, what Slack channels they’re on, which issue trackers they use; our definitions; our stages in the sales process. Everything should be in there. It’s hard to get right, so it’s a constant focus of my attention. But the idea is if you want to make a change to the company you propose an edit to the handbook, make a merge request, and then if you merge it you announce it. It’s the best handbook in the world; there’s lots of room for improvement, but it’s good and lets you see how lots of different parts of the company operate.\n\nAnd of course we use our own tools. So our customer success team uses an [issue board](https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/customer-success/sa-service-desk/boards/339477?=) so you can see what they’re doing and what stage it’s in. So we try to use our issue boards and our static websites so you can peer into any part of the company.\n\nOne thing we’re still getting better at is how to expose metrics. We already have a good metrics sheet that’s up to date, consuming all the revenue models and everything we have, but I want that to be a real-time thing that looks a bit prettier and has some better graphs.\n\nAnother thing we do to keep everyone posted is everyone gets the investor update. So every single month, between the 10th and 15th, we send out an investor update about what was good, what was bad, and all our core metrics and everyone in the company gets it.\n\n**Do people find that helpful?**\n\nI think people find it helpful. I believe if you want people to invest in the company you have to treat them like investors – which they are, because they have options. I think what people pay attention to most is runway (months of cash remaining) and what’s bad.\n\n**One thing we’ve heard is that people want a weekly set of highlights of the things that they need to know. Do you do anything like that?**\n\nI’ve never heard that. If your communication is any good, you repeat yourself a lot. I have a #ceo Slack channel, so hopefully what I say there is congruent with what I say in the investor update is congruent with what the leaders in marketing and sales are saying, etc. We’re not trying to make it the same message, but in a perfect world it’d be the same message.\n\n>If your communication is any good, you repeat yourself a lot.\n\nSo no, I’ve never heard the need for a summary. If I ever need to go find what sales was doing two weeks ago, I’d go find their functional update from two weeks ago.\n\n**If I switched to a new product team and I wanted to know what my new team has been working on, what would I do?**\n\nYou’d look at the functional updates. And also you could join the kickoffs and retrospectives, which happen every month and are broadcast live on [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/c/Gitlab). So that’s another channel you could use.\n\n**At which stage in your growth did you start doing those functional updates?**\n\nI don’t know exactly. About 50 engineers. But it’s also because this is an open source project and people who are contributing to the project but aren’t part of GitLab are wondering what’s in the pipeline and what’s happening.\n\n**Do you have any internal blog or tools that people log into to get information about what the company is up to?**\n\nNo. There’s the handbook, but for regular updates that’s what the functional team updates and issue boards are for.\n\n**Do you feel like there’s things that aren’t shared that should be? Are those functional updates high enough bandwidth or frequent enough to get everything across?**\n\nWith our kickoffs, because they’re live broadcast, some of our product managers would get into presentation mode, like “Everything’s going to be wonderful!” There’s going to be some of that, but I think it could be more measured and raw. In our retrospectives there’s a more of that. People are also used to asking hard questions and getting praised for that. You say things like “Wow, that’s a hard question. That’s the best question we’ve got.”\n\n**If I’m a product manager and I’m about to release something that will affect the product and I don’t have a functional update this week, what’s the best way to do that?**\n\nFor the company, post in the general chat channel that will be consumed by many people and you mention the related people. If you need it externally you could do a blog post, but usually you could just do it in the issue and then tweet it from your personal account and it will be retweeted by GitLab.\n\n**So you depend on Slack for urgent notifications?**\n\nSlack is great for urgency. It’s its downfall as well.\n\n**What have been either pain points or surprises as you’ve gone from 100 to 200 people?**\n\nI think a pain point we’re experiencing right now is our team call. It’s too many people. We try to rotate people now, but after about 150 people, people lost track. And if you lose track you lose interest. So we’re thinking about getting a smaller group of people together, maybe even 7-15, and having them talk every day for a sustained period so you get to know them and then you switch up the groups.\n\nAlso, overuse of @channel mentions is a pet peeve. It’s only allowed if it’s urgent *and* important but people use them if it’s *only* urgent or *only* important. Those should just be posted without an @channel or @here mention. If my Slack always has a constant red thing then I’ll stop paying attention. It’s a tragedy of the commons.\n\n**Do you have any tricks for organizing Slack?**\n\nThere’s a few special channels: #thanks where we call people out for helping that gets about 10 posts a day and that’s one of my favorite channels.\n\nThere’s an #emotional channel where you can just complain about shit. And that’s allowed and encouraged and we give teddy bear emojis back.\n\n**How many channels do you have?**\n\nHundreds. More channels than people.\n\n**How do people navigate that when they join? Do you do anything to help them figure out which channels to join?**\n\nIt’s organic. These people already feel overwhelmed, do you want to give them more channels? It just gets worse. And in the handbook you can see what the channels are for your group.\n\n**Since we’re talking about cross-team collaboration, can you tell us about your summit?**\n\nWe try to do it every nine months and it’s forbidden to organize functional meetings there. So you can’t meet with the just sales or marketing team. Instead we have an '[unconference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconference)' based on the Lobby Conference, that’s built on user-generated content. We have two half days where people propose subjects, people vote on them, and someone kicks things off for five minutes and then a group of 15-20 people discuss it for 50 minutes.\n\nYou know the people in your team already, so we said “Please, please, please meet with other people.” The top two sessions at the last one were on avoiding burnout and how to keep yourself motivated while working at home. I was glad to see people organized sessions like that because we can do the purely job-related stuff at other times.\n\n**Well thanks. This has been really great and has challenged some of our assumptions. We’ve been assuming that we’re generating all this content and we need to figure out what the right curation layer is. But it sounds like you’ve been very successful at reducing the amount of content that’s generated in the first place but forcing it all to go through those channels, which solves the curation problem that way.**\n\n\n## About the guest author\n\nNoah Manger is a product manager, designer and developer, currently leading the Internal Tools team at Zapier. He lives in Portland, Oregon.\n\nCover image by [Alexandr Bormotin](https://unsplash.com/@bormot) on [Unsplash](https://unsplash.com/photos/Hd8b_WtKIck).\n",[23,24,25],"cloud native","remote work","collaboration","yml",{},true,"/en-us/blog/zapier-pick-your-brain-interview",{"title":15,"description":16,"ogTitle":15,"ogDescription":16,"noIndex":12,"ogImage":19,"ogUrl":31,"ogSiteName":32,"ogType":33,"canonicalUrls":31},"https://about.gitlab.com/blog/zapier-pick-your-brain-interview","https://about.gitlab.com","article","en-us/blog/zapier-pick-your-brain-interview",[36,37,25],"cloud-native","remote-work","7YpE_FHZnd3PJEmaRI-j1Dx6UykjZ4gOoXo-gV_7W-Q",{"data":40},{"logo":41,"freeTrial":46,"sales":51,"login":56,"items":61,"search":369,"minimal":400,"duo":419,"pricingDeployment":429},{"config":42},{"href":43,"dataGaName":44,"dataGaLocation":45},"/","gitlab logo","header",{"text":47,"config":48},"Get free 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Relations at GitLab: What we've learned since our start","DevRel is key to success for many tech companies. Find out how GitLab's DevRel program has evolved to stay aligned with the industry and our customers.",[710],"John Coghlan","https://res.cloudinary.com/about-gitlab-com/image/upload/v1749672008/Blog/Hero%20Images/AdobeStock_204527293.jpg","2024-03-13","Earlier this year, a tweet (are they still called that?) by [Kelsey Hightower](https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower) sparked discussion on social media and internally at GitLab.\n\n![Kelsey Hightower tweet](https://res.cloudinary.com/about-gitlab-com/image/upload/v1749678041/Blog/Content%20Images/Screenshot_2024-03-08_at_8.19.09_AM.png)\n\nAt first, Kelsey's response might seem a bit flippant, but there’s an underlying truth to it: Developer Relations (short: DevRel) – and other business functions – must meet the needs of the business and your customers. However, what your stakeholders and customers need will be different in the future. Therefore, to be successful, you have to iterate to stay aligned with them.\n\nReflecting back on my five years working in Developer Relations (formerly known as Community Relations) at GitLab, our team has continuously evolved to stay aligned with the needs of our customers, our community, and the business. GitLab CEO and founder Sid Sijbrandij explains how North Star Metrics evolve in his blog post on goal-setting for startups: [Artificially constraining your company to one goal creates velocity and creativity](https://opencoreventures.com/blog/2023-06-05-artificially-constrain-one-goal-to-create-creativity-velocity/). He details the shift from attention to active users to revenue to profit. The evolution of DevRel at GitLab in many ways maps to that same journey.\n\n![What is DevRel - image 2](https://res.cloudinary.com/about-gitlab-com/image/upload/v1749678041/Blog/Content%20Images/image1.png)\n\n## Early DevRel at GitLab\n\nWhen I joined GitLab in 2018, our team was largely made up of Community Advocates, an Evangelist Program Manager (me), a Code Contributor program manager, and a director. The Community Advocates were tasked with monitoring and engaging with GitLab community members across various online channels but primarily [Hacker News](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/marketing/developer-relations/developer-evangelism/hacker-news/) and Twitter. Answering questions and creating issues based on comments served to increase awareness and attention for GitLab. In addition, users learned that their questions would be answered and feedback was being heard and, frequently, acted on.\n\nAt the same time, the Code Contributor program and Evangelist program were driving growth and interest in GitLab by helping our contributors navigate the contribution process, organizing events and meetups to connect our community, and deepening our relationship with our community champions, also known as [GitLab Heroes](https://contributors.gitlab.com/docs/previous-heroes).\n\nFor companies in early stages, this is how DevRel often looks. The key tactics in this phase are:\n- use low-cost tools (blogs and social media) to drive attention\n- capitalize on people’s interest to deepen relationships and create advocates and champions\n- smooth the pathways to contribute or discover content\n\n> **Tip:** Direct engagement with your community through social media and online forums drives awareness, builds trust, and increases the quality and volume of feedback on your product.\n\n## Expanding DevRel's reach\n\nNext, we ramped up programs like GitLab for Open Source and GitLab for Education. These programs helped attract to our platform key open source projects and many large academic institutions, both with large numbers of engaged users. More users meant more feedback to help us improve the product and more contributors.\n\nAs attention grew and the breadth and depth of our platform increased, we needed to better enable our customers to leverage the capabilities of GitLab’s DevSecOps Platform. This stage roughly maps to the revenue North Star Metric. To drive greater awareness and adoption, the Community Relations team underwent a critical change.\n\n> **Tip:** When looking to grow your active users, engage with partners who can bring their community to your product or platform. This strategy is often overlooked but can be a big boost to awareness and growth, setting you up for success.\n\n## Deepening the DevRel bench\n\nAs our next move, we formed a team of technical experts, known as Developer Evangelists. This team engaged in more traditional DevRel practices, those that might come to mind when asking yourself “What is DevRel?”. Internally, we referred to this team’s role as the three Cs:\n- Content creation - creating blog posts, technical talks, demos, and other content to enable our customers\n- Community engagement - engaging online and at events with our customers and community\n- Consulting - serving as internal advocates for and experts on the wider GitLab community\n\nHaving technical experts who could connect directly with customers and escalate that feedback internally helped improve the feedback loop between users and product teams. This team also deeply understood GitLab users, which improved the company's ability to enable our customers and community through content.\n\n> **Tip:** Early in your company journey, executives, product managers, and engineers play a vital role in engaging with community. As the number of users grows, you’ll need technical experts on your team who can directly engage with users and ensure customer feedback reaches key stakeholders (executives and product owners).\n\n## Continuously evolving DevRel at GitLab\n\nOver the past year, the team has evolved again.\n\n- A new vice president joined our team and has helped us become more strategic and better aligned cross-functionally.\n\n- A Contributor Success team was established to better engage and align with our customers around contributions to GitLab. Evolving from a one-person function to a full-fledged team of engineers with deep experience in open source (including multiple past contributors to GitLab), this team continuously improves the contribution experience and engages directly with customers who wish to contribute.\n\n- We updated our team name and many of our team members’ job titles to align with industry standards.\n\n- And we’ve all ramped up quite a bit on AI, perhaps you’ve heard of [GitLab Duo](https://about.gitlab.com/gitlab-duo/)?\n\nAs GitLab continues to mature as a public company, the team will continue to evolve. Through these changes, we will stay focused on increasing the efficiency and impact of our efforts for our customers, our product, and our team.\n\n## Gaining - and maintaining - executive buy-in\n\nExecutive buy-in is essential for DevRel. Look at the companies with the largest, most engaged communities and you will find that those companies also have the most active, engaged, and often highly respected founders and CEOs. This is certainly true with GitLab.\n\nGitLab’s engagement with our community began before we were even a company when Dmitriy Zaporozhets (DZ) started the open source GitLab project with [this commit](https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-foss/commit/9ba1224867665844b117fa037e1465bb706b3685). The engagement continued when Sid [launched GitLab on Hacker News](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4428278).\n\nThe importance of community in GitLab’s success cannot be overstated, and while we’ve grown to heights that few companies reach, contributions from our customers and community remain central in [our strategy](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/company/strategy/#dual-flywheels). Because of this, team members, from the highest levels of GitLab and throughout our organization, remain in active communication with our customers via issues and social forums, working hard at all times to help them succeed. Transparency is key here. Documenting our DevRel strategies in the [public GitLab handbook](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/marketing/developer-relations/) enables everyone to contribute.\n\n> **Tip:** Executive support is critical when building a community.\n\n## So what is DevRel?\n\nI want to go back to the initial question that sparked this blog: What is DevRel?\n\nI’ll leave you with a quote from Emilio Salvador, vice president of Developer Relations at GitLab, which was recently merged to [our handbook page](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/marketing/developer-relations):\n\n\u003Ci>\"Developer Relations (short: DevRel) operates at the intersection of technology, community, and advocacy, serving as the voice and ears of GitLab in the wider tech world. Their core mission revolves around nurturing and sustaining a vibrant, engaged community of developers, contributors, and users. This involves a multifaceted approach that includes creating educational content, organizing events and workshops, developing programs, and providing platforms for knowledge exchange and collaboration. The team not only focuses on promoting GitLab’s features and capabilities but also actively listens to and incorporates feedback from the community to inform product development and improvements.\"\u003C/i>\n\nThat’s what it is today, but if the history of DevRel at GitLab is any indication, I expect that we’ll continue to iterate going forward.\n\n> [Join our Discord community](https://discord.gg/gitlab) to continue the conversation.\n",[546,556,715],"inside GitLab",{"slug":717,"featured":28,"template":13},"developer-relations-at-gitlab-what-weve-learned-since-our-start",{"content":719,"config":730},{"title":720,"description":721,"authors":722,"heroImage":724,"date":725,"body":726,"category":9,"tags":727},"Visualizing 11 years of GitLab contributions","Check out this animated video, which beautifully visualizes every contribution since our start.",[723],"Darwin Sanoy","https://res.cloudinary.com/about-gitlab-com/image/upload/v1749682555/Blog/Hero%20Images/gitlabeveryonecontributesdna.png","2022-12-19","\n\nGitLab’s mission is to make it so that **[everyone can contribute](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/company/mission/#mission)**. While I have been experiencing this mission for three years, I wondered if there was a way to visualize the effect of having everyone contribute over GitLab's history. It turns out there is. An open source project known as [Gource](https://gource.io/) can create an animated visualization of the commit history of a repository. I ran it against the GitLab repository and it visualizes 11 years of busy developers contributing over 300,000 commits to GitLab - covered in just under 10 minutes of video. Each node in the visualization is a file and the count of various file types is shown on the left.\n\nA big thank you to absolutely everyone who has made contributions to GitLab over the years. Hopefully this visualization helps you have a greater sense of this community.\n\nGitLab has recently published the management principles that help enable the \"everyone can contribute\" mission within GitLab. This new people management framework is called [TeamOps](/teamops/). Everyone can learn and become certified in TeamOps through GitLab’s learning portal.\n\nAs another mile marker of the power of the everyone can contribute mission, GitLab also just celebrated one year as [a public company](/blog/one-third-of-what-we-learned-about-ipos-in-taking-gitlab-public/)!\n\nI hope you enjoy Gource’s video visualization, which is filled with the glow of light - seems very appropriate for the many global cultural festivals at this time of year that use light and fireworks to celebrate their communities!\n\n\u003Cfigure class=\"video_container\">\n\u003Ciframe width=\"1870\" height=\"937\" src=\"https://www.youtube.com/embed/QxLzyJDljpg\" title=\"\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen>\u003C/iframe>\n\u003C/figure>\n\n\nIf you'd like to become a contributor, check out our [contribution guide](/community/contribute/).\n",[261,728,729],"contributors","features",{"slug":731,"featured":12,"template":13},"everyone-who-has-contributed",{"content":733,"config":743},{"title":734,"description":735,"authors":736,"heroImage":738,"date":739,"body":740,"category":9,"tags":741},"The many routes to a tech career","GitLab team members of different ages and backgrounds share their entry into this industry.",[737],"Heather Simpson","https://res.cloudinary.com/about-gitlab-com/image/upload/v1749667236/Blog/Hero%20Images/Learn-at-GL.jpg","2022-10-04","\nThe path to a career in technology isn’t always straight, particularly today. World and economic uncertainty, a lingering pandemic, a shift to remote work, and a need to do something that *matters* – all of these factors have caused sweeping changes in the broader workforce, in individual careers, and in the labor-shortage-plagued technology industry.\n\n## Tech career: Overview and insights\n\nEver wondered how to get into the tech world? To help try to make sense of it all, we asked three GitLab team members how they made their way into technology, and why they stay. Each has a different story to tell.\n\n### [Mark Loveless](https://gitlab.com/mloveless), Staff Security Engineer\n\nFollow Mark on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/simplenomad)\n\nI’ve been working since the age of 16 at various jobs, eventually gaining my first real tech job in 1990 as customer support at a call center. I had always had an interest in security and moved into more of a true security role in the mid-1990s, followed by my first security research job in 1999. For many in the security field, security research was fairly brand-new territory, so those of us who had been working for quite a while found ourselves reporting to individuals our own age or younger. Later on in my career this more or less became the norm, as my peers were almost always younger than me.\n\nI did, on occasion, run into prejudices involving my age, with the main two being as follows:\n- I was often overlooked for exploring new technologies as it was assumed I would not “get it.”\n\n- It was assumed that there was something wrong with me for not being in management. I love learning new things and am constantly exploring new technology. I’ve never had the desire to go into management as I preferred the independent contributor (IC) role.\n\nTo stay active and “keep up on the latest” whether it be the newest apps or what some weird meme means, well, Google is your friend. I try to stay active on at least some social media sites. I have friends and family who are much younger than me that I interact with a lot, and I ask a lot of questions. All of these steps have helped me substantially.\n\nIt is nice that when some new bit of tech comes out, I now have family and friends asking me what it's all about, and they certainly start asking if it is considered “safe” technology because they know my background. I’m fortunate that here at GitLab what knowledge I have is appreciated, no one assumes I can or cannot do something because of my age or because of preconceived ideas about what I might know at this point in my career.\n\n### [Juliet Wanjohi](https://gitlab.com/jwanjohi), Senior Security Engineer\n\nFollow Juliet on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/jay_wanjohi)\n\nI started in tech by undertaking a bachelor’s degree in Computer Science. I had an interest in software engineering before I decided to specialize in another area of interest: security. My goal was to blend my knowledge and skills in the two fields, and create a niche for myself as a security software engineer. I got the wonderful opportunity to be a part of the GitLab [Engineering Internship program](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/company/working-groups/engineering-internship/) and progressed on to become a full-time security engineer on the [Security Automation](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/security/security-engineering/automation/) team in 2020.\n\nIt was both exciting and overwhelming to join such a distinguished, mature team while still being very green in the security field. I was among the youngest members of the team, which definitely drew out my imposter syndrome. Despite this, GitLab offered a welcoming environment where I felt comfortable and encouraged to bring my ideas forward, and contribute as any other team member would. About a year later, I was promoted to senior security engineer, highlighting the fact that number of years of experience does not necessarily translate to seniority; you also don’t have to be of a certain age to work at a certain level of a role. It all comes down to your skills, and a willingness to further your passion and be better at what you do.\n\nIn previous junior roles I had experienced negative effects of stereotypical thinking and unconscious bias, where my contributions were not valued because of my age. I was often overlooked when it came to opportunities to lead presentations or own projects. This made me feel like I had to work harder and put more pressure to prove myself “worthy.” Such occurrences should not discourage anyone who’s young and new to tech, but instead push you to confidently contribute your ideas, and look for ways to expand your reach by making the most of the networking and learning opportunities available to you.\n\nIt’s important to research and evaluate the culture of a company before joining it. Take a look at the initiatives the company carries out to increase awareness against these biases and the efforts to support those who are new to the field (whether they be due to age or career path). I feel lucky to be a part of GitLab, as there are [dedicated resources for team member career, growth, and development](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/people-group/learning-and-development/career-development/#resources-for-team-members), including a newly created [Early Career Professionals Team Member Discussion Group](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/company/culture/inclusion/tmdg-gitlab-early-career/). The group helps those that are early career professionals in the team by supporting their growth and increasing awareness in the organization around the challenges they face on a day-to-day basis.\n\n### [Pj Metz](https://gitlab.com/PjMetz), Education Evangelist\n\nFollow Pj on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/metzinaround)\n\nI made a transition into tech at 35 years old. I didn’t feel 35 when I started though because I had only just started learning about tech through coding a year before I started at GitLab. Instead, I felt 19 – brand-new and lost in a world in which I had no experience.\n\nAs a teacher, I was confident in my abilities in the classroom. I was, not to brag, a great English teacher. I was engaging, excited about the material, and worked hard to make it relatable and enjoyable for as many students as possible. Leaving after 11 years was not an easy choice, especially because my degrees felt suddenly useless. What other work could I possibly do with a Master’s degree in Secondary English Education?\n\nI joined GitLab as an Education Evangelist in our [Education Program](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/marketing/developer-relations/community-programs/education-program/) and was able to draw on my former knowledge base, but not completely.\n\nAlthough I don’t have to code for my role, I have to know coding, which I had only started to learn in 2020 in between grading papers and working with a marching band at my high school. I also have to know how to talk to students and educators in a variety of concentrations. Computer Science, Information Systems, Business Analysis, and other degree programs are all looking to use [GitLab for Education](/solutions/education/), and I have to find ways to make it relevant for them.\n\nThis challenge has led to some of the hardest moments of my professional life. I can navigate an unmotivated teenager in class, a parent email about their child’s low grades that blames me, an administrator suddenly showing up for an observation, a drumline member who hasn’t figured out the rhythm for the halftime show opener, or an AP student stuck on analysis of the assigned article. However, this is different. The career I entered into is full of jargon and standards that were unfamiliar to me.\n\nI had a lot to learn. What are stock options? What is Slack? How do I structure my time if there isn’t a bell ringing to let me know the beginning and end of class? What is an expense report? People expect someone my age to know these things already.\n\nI have a sticker on my laptop case that looks like the kind you’d get at a small meetup, the kind that says “HELLO, I’m...” and then there is a space to write your name. This sticker says: “Hello, I’m Still Learning.” I have this not so people can lower their expectations of me; instead, its purpose is to highlight that we should all still be learning and I’m going to be open about what I don’t know. I’m doing my best to turn my perceived shortcomings into strengths by bringing a mindset of [iteration](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/values/#iteration) to my work, something GitLab helped me realize was important.\n\nI’m still learning, and feel so far behind some of my colleagues, but GitLab and my team have worked hard to create a space for me to feel comfortable while I work through this career change. It helps that my manager is also a former educator, so she understands the change from education to the corporate world.\n\nShe reminds me to take time for myself after each conference or lecture. My onboarding buddy still meets with me regularly to help me work through something technical or to give advice about a project I’m working on. Every opportunity to connect with people as a person, whether through a [coffee chat or the “Donut-be-strangers” Slack bot](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/company/culture/all-remote/informal-communication/#coffee-chats), which matches me with another, random team member, helps me remain grounded in the humanity of my work. Every team meeting I’m in has a reminder of the importance of taking time for ourselves, and a section in the agenda to cheer each other’s accomplishments. I couldn’t ask for a better place to have my first non-teaching job.\n\n### What’s your story?\n\nHow’d you get into tech? Make any pit stops along the way, or have you always been working in this industry? Let us know in the comments field. Also, if you are considering GitLab as your next step, check out our handbook to learn more about [our culture](https://handbook.gitlab.com/handbook/company/culture/), and then take a peek at our [open roles](/jobs/all-jobs/)!\n",[742,715],"careers",{"slug":744,"featured":12,"template":13},"the-many-routes-to-a-tech-career",{"promotions":746},[747,761,773],{"id":748,"categories":749,"header":751,"text":752,"button":753,"image":758},"ai-modernization",[750],"ai-ml","Is AI achieving its promise at scale?","Quiz will take 5 minutes or less",{"text":754,"config":755},"Get your AI maturity score",{"href":756,"dataGaName":757,"dataGaLocation":243},"/assessments/ai-modernization-assessment/","modernization assessment",{"config":759},{"src":760},"https://res.cloudinary.com/about-gitlab-com/image/upload/v1772138786/qix0m7kwnd8x2fh1zq49.png",{"id":762,"categories":763,"header":765,"text":752,"button":766,"image":770},"devops-modernization",[764,559],"product","Are you just managing tools or shipping innovation?",{"text":767,"config":768},"Get your DevOps maturity score",{"href":769,"dataGaName":757,"dataGaLocation":243},"/assessments/devops-modernization-assessment/",{"config":771},{"src":772},"https://res.cloudinary.com/about-gitlab-com/image/upload/v1772138785/eg818fmakweyuznttgid.png",{"id":774,"categories":775,"header":777,"text":752,"button":778,"image":782},"security-modernization",[776],"security","Are you trading speed for security?",{"text":779,"config":780},"Get your security maturity score",{"href":781,"dataGaName":757,"dataGaLocation":243},"/assessments/security-modernization-assessment/",{"config":783},{"src":784},"https://res.cloudinary.com/about-gitlab-com/image/upload/v1772138786/p4pbqd9nnjejg5ds6mdk.png",{"header":786,"blurb":787,"button":788,"secondaryButton":793},"Start building faster today","See what your team can do with the intelligent orchestration platform for DevSecOps.\n",{"text":789,"config":790},"Get your free trial",{"href":791,"dataGaName":50,"dataGaLocation":792},"https://gitlab.com/-/trial_registrations/new?glm_content=default-saas-trial&glm_source=about.gitlab.com/","feature",{"text":495,"config":794},{"href":54,"dataGaName":55,"dataGaLocation":792},1772652107258]